Very insightful read! Thank you for sharing your experience. Definitely expands my understanding of so many variables to consider during such a short time to react. This underscores the need for practice, practice, practice!
Thank you for the insight. I think the thing to consider is can most church security team members really draw in 1.5 seconds. I know our church is very sensitive to our congregation. They don't want firearms visible to the congregation at all. Given this requirement, open carry or shoulder holsters are out of the question. So I wear a IWB Super Tuk type holster with my dress shirt tucked over it. This obviously causes some issues drawing. This increases draw time as you have to pull your dress shirt up and out of the way to draw. I would imagine the 21-foot rules was calculated using a normal police retention holster. That is very different than how we have to carry on our church security team.
Most people cannot draw and shoot from concealed within 1.5 seconds. You’ll have to add decision making in there too. So, 21 feet will be greatly expanded past 40’. Each instance is unique and up to the individual to justify what they’ve done.
Good article. I'm a retired LEO with 27 years of service of which many were a K9 and several on SRT. I don't want to sound critical but the 21' rule we teach at my academy is a minimum distance.
Also the drill is done with your pistol in the holster vs at a low ready along with redirecting (getting off the X) vs staying static.
You will NEVER draw and place EFFECTIVE fire on threat holstered within the old 21' rule. Period. And as far as this 1.5 sec thing goes, forget it especially for new shooters. Set it as a goal.
It was Vickers who stated "Speed Is Fine But Accuracy Is Final".
In the end, it doesn't matter what you or I believe about the 21 foot rule. It will be what the jury believes and is convinced of. Have a good advocate.
I tell students in my personal defense class that there are two elements at play in an encounter. One is the physical firearm manipulation skills. The other is the chess game unfolding before you. The more proficient you are with your firearm skills the less you have to think about it, freeing up mental capacity to engage in the chess game. You are trying to gain positional advantage over another, adjusting to their movements in real time. Distance matters in the fact that it changes reaction times and can add complexity in marksmanship should it come to that. Be as proficient as you can with your sidearm including competition.
In a church context, with crowds of people mingling, a contact and cover tactic used for a potential threat is very difficult to execute at 20 feet. When attempted during drills, when responders are waiting to act, drawing either a knife or gun in 1.5 seconds is rare. When I think about the type of firearms church security teams carry, short barrel, easily concealed with tiny grips, making longer shots with precision becomes erratic. This conversation opens the tactical reality of close protection difficulty.
Sir, your experience and comments are greatly appreciated. As a pastor who relies heavily on those in the church to protect God's children, I glean a lot of very good insight through comments from experienced people like yourself. Thank you for sharing. In fairness to the author, in your comments you did not indicate that the "rookie" author read way too much into this concept, but rather indicated, "our author here
Most of us civilians cannot draw from concealed and fire two rounds into the chest area within 1.5 seconds, each one is different based on your training so that will increase the distance, plus it will take at least an additional second to realize we are under attack in the first place.
I believe as church security we should be preparing our draw well before 21 feet, perhaps double that distance.
I taught pistol training for a few years and still have the videos made in L.A. regarding police officers and response time. (Wish I could upload them.) The perp with the rubber knife was an accomplished black belt who "stabbed" a dozen officers until one drew to the low ready upon sighting this guy after he failed to follow voice commands. That cop still came close to getting "sliced and diced." I have photos of one poor guy who was not so lucky.
We talk about perps on drugs but many don't understand what that can mean. Some drugs slow perps down and make them barely coherent. Other drugs can afford people nearly superhuman speed and agility. Case in point...
I am in Detroit one summer afternoon, riding in a hotel van to the hotel. A Delta 98 blows by our van at 100mph plus, veering around us all the way out to the slow lane. As he corrects back, his right rear tire blows (darn!) and the cars spins across three lanes and slams into the median, headed backwards.
As the cops in pursuits blow by us, the perp in the crashed Oldsmobile, leaps out of the car, over a five foot Jersey barrier, and somehow sprints across three lanes of traffic, barely looking for traffic (darn!) and then runs up the side of the freeway grass hill, and without hesitating, vaults a six foot chain link fence, where he then freezes to watch the cops just coming to a stop by the Olds. Then, he turns and disappears into someone's back yard. All this happened in about the time it took you to read it. This kid was on some incredible drugs.
The point being, 21 feet is just a thing to be aware of. If you have a perp carrying any weapon and they are inside of that distance, you might want to make distance or consider putting a barrier between you and he. And like someone said below, getting your weapon out may be a thought to consider. If this guy is on heavy meds, he may vault a row of chairs before you can respond.
Another point to throw out, especially for non-LEO volunteers is, I used to get my pistol students to draw to the low ready, finger off the trigger, when threats dictated, like the cop who survived the martial arts expert did. The old saying is, "We resort to the lowest level of training under stress." This means you are not automatically going to draw and fire, which may not be the desired response. Of course, if the situation dictates, continuing up to fire can be easily accomplished at rest or in one continuous motion. Breaking it into two seemed to help people who are not used to handling stressful events.
I have also added pepper spray/mace to my carry items in church. I bought a few of the small pocket sized spray canisters off Amazon for about $11 apiece. As someone who got his eyes drenched with pepper spray in posse training, I can say, that stuff will take the wind out of 99% of people in an instant. You can pull that out of your pocket, virtually unnoticed and keep it in your fist for immediate deployment should the need arise, without harming anyone permanently. Spray it ear to ear. Just a thought.
God Bless Keith and may the Lord heal him and reveal His glory to all who follow this channel!
Good one, Keith! I think this is another strong argument for having less lethal options always available, as they may actually incapacitate the individual more quickly than a bullet placed anywhere other than a head shot placed in the A zone, not easy under stress!
I strongly doubt that anything like the "21-Foot Rule" would apply at most churches. The main entry at most churches is less than 21 feet from where security personnel would first make note of anyone approaching the entrance. Add to this, the likelihood that security personnel are probably greeting/screening other folks who are approaching from left, front, and the right sides. Most likely scenario for when a security team member senses a threat will be within 3-5 feet, as the threat is greeted. At this distance, the best defense isn't a "rule" at all. It is a good procedure. It is the presence of multiple security personnel who are paying attention to all approaching people. Multiple security personnel will make a significant deterrent to anyone contemplating doing harm. It also provides multiple "eyes on target" to determine if a threat exists. This does not factor in the presence of crazy folks.
Very insightful read! Thank you for sharing your experience. Definitely expands my understanding of so many variables to consider during such a short time to react. This underscores the need for practice, practice, practice!
Thank you for the insight. I think the thing to consider is can most church security team members really draw in 1.5 seconds. I know our church is very sensitive to our congregation. They don't want firearms visible to the congregation at all. Given this requirement, open carry or shoulder holsters are out of the question. So I wear a IWB Super Tuk type holster with my dress shirt tucked over it. This obviously causes some issues drawing. This increases draw time as you have to pull your dress shirt up and out of the way to draw. I would imagine the 21-foot rules was calculated using a normal police retention holster. That is very different than how we have to carry on our church security team.
Most people cannot draw and shoot from concealed within 1.5 seconds. You’ll have to add decision making in there too. So, 21 feet will be greatly expanded past 40’. Each instance is unique and up to the individual to justify what they’ve done.
Thank you. This is very good information. Especially for those of us with military backgrounds where there is no 21-foot (or even a 21-yard) rule.
Good article. I'm a retired LEO with 27 years of service of which many were a K9 and several on SRT. I don't want to sound critical but the 21' rule we teach at my academy is a minimum distance.
Also the drill is done with your pistol in the holster vs at a low ready along with redirecting (getting off the X) vs staying static.
You will NEVER draw and place EFFECTIVE fire on threat holstered within the old 21' rule. Period. And as far as this 1.5 sec thing goes, forget it especially for new shooters. Set it as a goal.
It was Vickers who stated "Speed Is Fine But Accuracy Is Final".
In the end, it doesn't matter what you or I believe about the 21 foot rule. It will be what the jury believes and is convinced of. Have a good advocate.
Please get your training on rumble.
Grace be unto you Keith.
I tell students in my personal defense class that there are two elements at play in an encounter. One is the physical firearm manipulation skills. The other is the chess game unfolding before you. The more proficient you are with your firearm skills the less you have to think about it, freeing up mental capacity to engage in the chess game. You are trying to gain positional advantage over another, adjusting to their movements in real time. Distance matters in the fact that it changes reaction times and can add complexity in marksmanship should it come to that. Be as proficient as you can with your sidearm including competition.
In a church context, with crowds of people mingling, a contact and cover tactic used for a potential threat is very difficult to execute at 20 feet. When attempted during drills, when responders are waiting to act, drawing either a knife or gun in 1.5 seconds is rare. When I think about the type of firearms church security teams carry, short barrel, easily concealed with tiny grips, making longer shots with precision becomes erratic. This conversation opens the tactical reality of close protection difficulty.
Thanks Keith for sharing your insight and experience. Good wisdom to pass in to our church team. Be blessed!
Sir, your experience and comments are greatly appreciated. As a pastor who relies heavily on those in the church to protect God's children, I glean a lot of very good insight through comments from experienced people like yourself. Thank you for sharing. In fairness to the author, in your comments you did not indicate that the "rookie" author read way too much into this concept, but rather indicated, "our author here
Most of us civilians cannot draw from concealed and fire two rounds into the chest area within 1.5 seconds, each one is different based on your training so that will increase the distance, plus it will take at least an additional second to realize we are under attack in the first place.
I believe as church security we should be preparing our draw well before 21 feet, perhaps double that distance.
Recently watched this video on the "rule".
https://youtu.be/IswY4IbF3Qk?si=PoxDiBs5HGjxlfWH
Great stuff.
I taught pistol training for a few years and still have the videos made in L.A. regarding police officers and response time. (Wish I could upload them.) The perp with the rubber knife was an accomplished black belt who "stabbed" a dozen officers until one drew to the low ready upon sighting this guy after he failed to follow voice commands. That cop still came close to getting "sliced and diced." I have photos of one poor guy who was not so lucky.
We talk about perps on drugs but many don't understand what that can mean. Some drugs slow perps down and make them barely coherent. Other drugs can afford people nearly superhuman speed and agility. Case in point...
I am in Detroit one summer afternoon, riding in a hotel van to the hotel. A Delta 98 blows by our van at 100mph plus, veering around us all the way out to the slow lane. As he corrects back, his right rear tire blows (darn!) and the cars spins across three lanes and slams into the median, headed backwards.
As the cops in pursuits blow by us, the perp in the crashed Oldsmobile, leaps out of the car, over a five foot Jersey barrier, and somehow sprints across three lanes of traffic, barely looking for traffic (darn!) and then runs up the side of the freeway grass hill, and without hesitating, vaults a six foot chain link fence, where he then freezes to watch the cops just coming to a stop by the Olds. Then, he turns and disappears into someone's back yard. All this happened in about the time it took you to read it. This kid was on some incredible drugs.
The point being, 21 feet is just a thing to be aware of. If you have a perp carrying any weapon and they are inside of that distance, you might want to make distance or consider putting a barrier between you and he. And like someone said below, getting your weapon out may be a thought to consider. If this guy is on heavy meds, he may vault a row of chairs before you can respond.
Another point to throw out, especially for non-LEO volunteers is, I used to get my pistol students to draw to the low ready, finger off the trigger, when threats dictated, like the cop who survived the martial arts expert did. The old saying is, "We resort to the lowest level of training under stress." This means you are not automatically going to draw and fire, which may not be the desired response. Of course, if the situation dictates, continuing up to fire can be easily accomplished at rest or in one continuous motion. Breaking it into two seemed to help people who are not used to handling stressful events.
I have also added pepper spray/mace to my carry items in church. I bought a few of the small pocket sized spray canisters off Amazon for about $11 apiece. As someone who got his eyes drenched with pepper spray in posse training, I can say, that stuff will take the wind out of 99% of people in an instant. You can pull that out of your pocket, virtually unnoticed and keep it in your fist for immediate deployment should the need arise, without harming anyone permanently. Spray it ear to ear. Just a thought.
God Bless Keith and may the Lord heal him and reveal His glory to all who follow this channel!
Good one, Keith! I think this is another strong argument for having less lethal options always available, as they may actually incapacitate the individual more quickly than a bullet placed anywhere other than a head shot placed in the A zone, not easy under stress!
I agree!
I strongly doubt that anything like the "21-Foot Rule" would apply at most churches. The main entry at most churches is less than 21 feet from where security personnel would first make note of anyone approaching the entrance. Add to this, the likelihood that security personnel are probably greeting/screening other folks who are approaching from left, front, and the right sides. Most likely scenario for when a security team member senses a threat will be within 3-5 feet, as the threat is greeted. At this distance, the best defense isn't a "rule" at all. It is a good procedure. It is the presence of multiple security personnel who are paying attention to all approaching people. Multiple security personnel will make a significant deterrent to anyone contemplating doing harm. It also provides multiple "eyes on target" to determine if a threat exists. This does not factor in the presence of crazy folks.