I’d use them for my whole career, but they are not good if you’re a retiree. If you read their member agreement, you have to have your badge and your retiree ID on you and you can only use the gun that you qualified for. It is very restrictive if you don’t live in California. I looked at CCW safe, but you had to pay more if you were at church security it’s been a while since I took a look at their member agreement and I don’t know if they have changed it since then. They aren’t that bad.
This is very disturbing, even frightening. I personally believe it is becoming more evident with each passing day that Volunteer Security Staff must wear cameras to protect themselves and their Churches against potentially false litigation moves.
In this incident, the unimaginable may have occurred if he was armed, which he may well have been but met with too much interference.
Perhaps the trespasser has connections to someone on the Town or County payroll or similar, hence the professional request for additional information declined, and lack of legal support for the Veteran. Or worse, perhaps hired by a type of organization similar to paid groups who traveled during Covid attempting to incite violence, in order to create issues going forward for Church Security Teams post a public Court Case?
As stated, all facts or evidence are unavailable.
👉🏼 But how can we support this man in addition to our prayers?
Keith, This is disturbing on many levels. USCCA not stepping up. I will be dropping USCCA immediately. Police ignoring FOIA. This is really concerning. I have never heard that pepper spray was considered deadly force. "Pepper spray was not an option, and this was clearly not a deadly force situation." I always considered OC spray less lethal and first form of defense since it can be deployed at distance. Is this an Idaho statute? I live in Texas and service my local church body in Austin. Please help us understand.
It's a good question. Proximity, wind, others present and close to the Threat would eliminate pepper as an option. If the security team hasn't trained together for pepper they may be affected. We used the term Disengage to signal deployment of non-lethal force and prevent allies being hit.
One aspect of this came up in a training session I had today: If I understood my trainer correctly, when there is a disruptive person at church, they are not trespassing until they have been asked to leave and refused to do so. Also, in some churches, only the pastor has the authority to make that request, and some pastors really don't want to do so.
Today's trainer also had a different take on another scenario than a different trainer last month. In the scenario, a man is holding a gun to his own head while walking toward the building entrance, with his back to me. What I was told last month was that if the man kept walking toward the door despite instructions not to, once he got close enough to the door that there was no where else for him to go than inside, it would be proper to shoot him in the back. Today's trainer wasn't sure that would be legal, and instead suggested stopping him physically, but not by shooting him. From this case, I wonder if even touching the man would be allowable in some jurisdictions, even though in the scenario, if the man is not stopped, he immediately shoots others inside the building.
We really do need to iron out what a church security team can and can't do in such cases, or we won't have anyone willing to serve on the security team, and perhaps no one willing to even come to church.
Glad I don't have USCCA. Heading to Right to Bear. As church security, we must protect our congregation and our church (which is PRIVATE property). Thanks for this warning about USCCA.
I have a security/safety team here in Moscow Idaho and would never have thought that incident would be a problem in Idaho.
In fact we are doing a training session tomorrow covering protocols in case of a disruptive person. I’m using as one training segment your “De-escalation tactics for church security.”
As a 26 year retired Peace Officer state park California ranger, one of the reasons we moved from Cali was to get away from those situations.
I was up in the redwoods above San Francisco most of my career.
I faithfully follow your training and have used it a lot with our team
God Bless and keep us apprised.
PS I’m dropping USCCA after being a member for many years! Will look into. Right to Bear
I know it is hard to get the tone of written question sometimes. But it was just two questions asked in a non-critical manner. I don’t expect you to do any more research. Thanks for the info. Have a better day. God is good.
Well I guess I am now going to look at Right to Bear, thanks for the tip, I am a USCCA member at present and also w/ PORAC LDF (retired version). Have you heard of this one? (https://ccwsafe.com/ ) saw just today thru " CRPA " ( Ca rifle and pistol assoc)
Interesting that this happened in Post Falls, and over the weekend (2/22/25) we had an incident in CDA involving folks at a public forum, the Sheriff of Kootenai County ( I believe he's former LASO), and " unmarked security".
Look it up, it's streaming on CDA Press, KREM, and other various news affiliates by now. There are lessons for church security in the CDA event. Perhaps Keith can do an after action assessment.
Keith, first thing I want to say is thank you and God Bless you for what you are doing for the rest of us. The information that you share is always a godsend. This case reminds me of a story where a young man had entered a church and was stopped by security. He too was wearing a hoodie but he also had earpods in as he listened to his music and did not hear the orders to stop where he could be identified. It came to the point that he was physically restrained by security. The police were called to the church and the security officer was given the riot act due to the kid being very young ( 13 yo ). The parents in this case pushed the incident. No arrests were made but the police did refer the case to the prosecutor for charges considered. Upon learning that the kid was actually suppose to be arriving at the church he was permitted entry with no further issues. Is it your opinion that the church should have pursued charges or is it good enough to ensure that a church incident report be written with specific details or warnings given to the tresspasser prior to his permission of entry.
Each state is different and we should always consult with our church attorneys for some answers. With that out of the way.... I definitely wouldn't pursue charges for a 13 year old. I would document everything and give trespass warnings if warranted. I would also ensure that the church has given you the authority to trespass.
It doesn't matter that the man was a marine, nor that he was decorated. I don't like how those aspects are brought up as a way to justify the man. What should justify the man are his actions in the moment. Those actions looked reasonable to me. I don't see anything in the video to warrant any charges.
Wow! What an eye opener on USCCA. I have had them for several years, and thank God I have never had to use them. I will be reviewing your list of recommended agencies for insurance. This is one area that you don’t want to short change yourself.
In the future a preventative measure could be what looks like a cattle guard. It would be passable with a wheelchair but with spaces that would surely stop a skateboard 🛹 🤠 now there's a surveillance video I'd like to see!
Some guys would build them out of 2" water pipe. Some use train rail or I beam. It can be tastefully done. The trough underneath can be used to channel rain water our snow melt without flooding pathways.
I got rid of PORAC LDF.
I’d use them for my whole career, but they are not good if you’re a retiree. If you read their member agreement, you have to have your badge and your retiree ID on you and you can only use the gun that you qualified for. It is very restrictive if you don’t live in California. I looked at CCW safe, but you had to pay more if you were at church security it’s been a while since I took a look at their member agreement and I don’t know if they have changed it since then. They aren’t that bad.
Thanks for this info. We wear body cams on our church security shifts - for situations like this.
Sounds like Post Falls city government has been californicated.
Wonder who the trespasser belongs to …. This incident smells.
This is very disturbing, even frightening. I personally believe it is becoming more evident with each passing day that Volunteer Security Staff must wear cameras to protect themselves and their Churches against potentially false litigation moves.
In this incident, the unimaginable may have occurred if he was armed, which he may well have been but met with too much interference.
Perhaps the trespasser has connections to someone on the Town or County payroll or similar, hence the professional request for additional information declined, and lack of legal support for the Veteran. Or worse, perhaps hired by a type of organization similar to paid groups who traveled during Covid attempting to incite violence, in order to create issues going forward for Church Security Teams post a public Court Case?
As stated, all facts or evidence are unavailable.
👉🏼 But how can we support this man in addition to our prayers?
Thank you for all you do.
Keith, This is disturbing on many levels. USCCA not stepping up. I will be dropping USCCA immediately. Police ignoring FOIA. This is really concerning. I have never heard that pepper spray was considered deadly force. "Pepper spray was not an option, and this was clearly not a deadly force situation." I always considered OC spray less lethal and first form of defense since it can be deployed at distance. Is this an Idaho statute? I live in Texas and service my local church body in Austin. Please help us understand.
Hello Ted,
Keith was saying that the only reasonable force option left was physical. He basically explained neither Pepper Spray nor deadly force were viable.
I missed it. Why is pepper spray not viable?
It's a good question. Proximity, wind, others present and close to the Threat would eliminate pepper as an option. If the security team hasn't trained together for pepper they may be affected. We used the term Disengage to signal deployment of non-lethal force and prevent allies being hit.
I forgot to mention time, they probably didn't have time to draw and create distance to deploy OC.
One aspect of this came up in a training session I had today: If I understood my trainer correctly, when there is a disruptive person at church, they are not trespassing until they have been asked to leave and refused to do so. Also, in some churches, only the pastor has the authority to make that request, and some pastors really don't want to do so.
Today's trainer also had a different take on another scenario than a different trainer last month. In the scenario, a man is holding a gun to his own head while walking toward the building entrance, with his back to me. What I was told last month was that if the man kept walking toward the door despite instructions not to, once he got close enough to the door that there was no where else for him to go than inside, it would be proper to shoot him in the back. Today's trainer wasn't sure that would be legal, and instead suggested stopping him physically, but not by shooting him. From this case, I wonder if even touching the man would be allowable in some jurisdictions, even though in the scenario, if the man is not stopped, he immediately shoots others inside the building.
We really do need to iron out what a church security team can and can't do in such cases, or we won't have anyone willing to serve on the security team, and perhaps no one willing to even come to church.
Glad I don't have USCCA. Heading to Right to Bear. As church security, we must protect our congregation and our church (which is PRIVATE property). Thanks for this warning about USCCA.
Wow Keith,
That is very disturbing especially here in Idaho.
I have a security/safety team here in Moscow Idaho and would never have thought that incident would be a problem in Idaho.
In fact we are doing a training session tomorrow covering protocols in case of a disruptive person. I’m using as one training segment your “De-escalation tactics for church security.”
As a 26 year retired Peace Officer state park California ranger, one of the reasons we moved from Cali was to get away from those situations.
I was up in the redwoods above San Francisco most of my career.
I faithfully follow your training and have used it a lot with our team
God Bless and keep us apprised.
PS I’m dropping USCCA after being a member for many years! Will look into. Right to Bear
Praying for his record to be cleared. Dismissal of case. Absurd! God, get Your glory here in Jesus Holy Name Amen 🙏🏽
Was USCCA rightfully shamed into assisting their client? Is there any more information from USCCA that is relevant to this story?
I suggest you ask them. I clearly outlined how they responded to me and to their client. I don't know what else you expect...
I know it is hard to get the tone of written question sometimes. But it was just two questions asked in a non-critical manner. I don’t expect you to do any more research. Thanks for the info. Have a better day. God is good.
Well I guess I am now going to look at Right to Bear, thanks for the tip, I am a USCCA member at present and also w/ PORAC LDF (retired version). Have you heard of this one? (https://ccwsafe.com/ ) saw just today thru " CRPA " ( Ca rifle and pistol assoc)
I wonder if the trespasser was related to someone?
Interesting that this happened in Post Falls, and over the weekend (2/22/25) we had an incident in CDA involving folks at a public forum, the Sheriff of Kootenai County ( I believe he's former LASO), and " unmarked security".
Look it up, it's streaming on CDA Press, KREM, and other various news affiliates by now. There are lessons for church security in the CDA event. Perhaps Keith can do an after action assessment.
I did see that. It was.... interesting. I think a breakdown would be good. That is a great idea. Thank you.
Thank you. I appreciate your efforts more than words can express in public forum.
Keith, first thing I want to say is thank you and God Bless you for what you are doing for the rest of us. The information that you share is always a godsend. This case reminds me of a story where a young man had entered a church and was stopped by security. He too was wearing a hoodie but he also had earpods in as he listened to his music and did not hear the orders to stop where he could be identified. It came to the point that he was physically restrained by security. The police were called to the church and the security officer was given the riot act due to the kid being very young ( 13 yo ). The parents in this case pushed the incident. No arrests were made but the police did refer the case to the prosecutor for charges considered. Upon learning that the kid was actually suppose to be arriving at the church he was permitted entry with no further issues. Is it your opinion that the church should have pursued charges or is it good enough to ensure that a church incident report be written with specific details or warnings given to the tresspasser prior to his permission of entry.
Each state is different and we should always consult with our church attorneys for some answers. With that out of the way.... I definitely wouldn't pursue charges for a 13 year old. I would document everything and give trespass warnings if warranted. I would also ensure that the church has given you the authority to trespass.
It doesn't matter that the man was a marine, nor that he was decorated. I don't like how those aspects are brought up as a way to justify the man. What should justify the man are his actions in the moment. Those actions looked reasonable to me. I don't see anything in the video to warrant any charges.
Wow! What an eye opener on USCCA. I have had them for several years, and thank God I have never had to use them. I will be reviewing your list of recommended agencies for insurance. This is one area that you don’t want to short change yourself.
In the future a preventative measure could be what looks like a cattle guard. It would be passable with a wheelchair but with spaces that would surely stop a skateboard 🛹 🤠 now there's a surveillance video I'd like to see!
Some guys would build them out of 2" water pipe. Some use train rail or I beam. It can be tastefully done. The trough underneath can be used to channel rain water our snow melt without flooding pathways.