the licensing agency that covers that in CA is very strict. I'm not exactly sure about the exact rules if you were to work for your church, but I do believe you have to be there as part of an agency. It is best to get your CCW and then volunteer.
If we were to find the law supports a person must be there as apart of an agency; Doesn’t that sound “wrong”?
Meaning, I can be licensed to be an armed guard but I can’t provide volunteer services within the laws I’m licensed for unless I’m attached to a for-profit PPO. This would make more since if the PPO offered the training and licensing…but that’s not true either. I’m going to do some more research on this. I’ll try and keep you updated and thank you for your response! God bless
I’m from California and currently serve as an un-armed security volunteer at my Church. We do have some armed, off-duty LEO and retired LEO volunteers but not nearly enough of them. Some of us un-armed volunteers would like to be able to CC while volunteering,. The trouble is our Church operates an accredited K-12 Christian school as a ministry on site during the week. My question is this: can the Church (as owner of the entire property) limit, in writing, the hours and days the school is allowed to use the Church’s property for school purposes? Under such a lease or other written agreement, (I would think) the school would not exist on the hours and days not included in their agreement. So, during a typical school day, the entire church property could be viewed as “school property”. On the other hand, restricted days (per the lease or agreement with the school) the Church would have sole use of the entire campus as the school has no right to operate as a school on those days and hours per the written agreement. Thus on those other days and hours the Church’s property would simply be a Church, and not a school for the purposes of private concealed carrying of a handgun.
This seems very cut-and-dry to me, what am I missing.
Also, as being from San Jose, California, I have not even tried to apply for a California CCL. I know two individuals who have completed and now have their Cal CCLs. One took 18 months, the other took 2 years to get. Currently, each license is good for 2 years and costs in the neighborhood of $1,750. Crazy. I’ve carried CCLs from Utah, Oregon, and Nevada for over 13 years and carry whenever and wherever I travel out of this State. So, my second question is this: I’m not familiar with Federal or California laws requiring a local CCL to carry in a Church. Could you elaborate for me where in the law that requirement can be found? I just assumed a private “Church” was private property like a residence or business. Thanks for your feedback.
Unfortunately that won't work. I'm sorry. AS for a CCW, if you are in a red county you can get one no problem. I worked in the Bay Area. The sheriff's there will delay you as much as possible to deter you. PLease, just start the process. You'll need that CCW.
I’m glad I asked the question. I was under a mistaken understanding of what the word “public” meant as it relates to “private property”. Thank you for clarifying that and giving me the basis under the law.
Can I add one additional question beings you’re a former law enforcement officer from California: if a person without a Cal CCL properly transports a firearm and then wares it CC in a Church “without” a school present, is there a penal code preventing him from doing so? If so, could you point me to that penal code. I know this isn’t my situation at the moment, but it helps me understand all the different limitations on this subject.
In California, carrying a concealed firearm without a CCW is illegal under Penal Code § 25400, regardless of location, including a church without a school present. Properly transporting a firearm (unloaded, in a locked container) is allowed under Penal Code § 25610, but concealed carry on your person without a permit violates the law. Let me know if you need further clarification!
Hi Keith, I know you’re a busy guy and I feel bad asking you again but, please, can you point me to the section of the California penal code you were referring to when you described how a Church cannot separate itself from a school that contracts to use part of its property during specific school days and hours. There is a lot riding on me being able to definitely describe to our Church what legal dangers there might be… or not.
As for a California CCL… with an 18 to 24 months wait, I think I would be better off waiting for a good reciprocity bill from Congress or a corrective decision from the Supreme Court.
My son-in-law is an attorney but he does not specialize in criminal law. I was hoping to get to the bottom of this with specific penal codes and/or case law that I could use to discuss this with him. I appreciate your “no” recommendation but I’m the kind of person that also needs to know “why”.
Keith, I am curious about your answers to my two questions, and I was wondering about what laws (other than the Federal and California Gun-Free Zone Act and the Safe Schools Act which I have read and studied) and what case law examples brought you to your conclusions. Have there been similar examples of innocent citizens charged and convicted of carrying after their Churches had separated themselves from their schools in a manner similar to what I suggested?
Also, I’m still at a loss to understand how having a California CCL adds anything other than some convenience when it comes to carrying at a Church (assuming the Church doesn’t have an attached school). Sure, a non CCL holder security volunteer in California would have to bring his handgun to Church in a locked container, and holster it only once he arrives on Church property. Then he would have to reverse this process before he leaves. Why would it not be legal for a private citizen to conceal carry on private Church property? Is there some other law I’m not familiar with? Please help me to understand this.
Thank you for helping me to understand these issues.
It all comes from the California penal code. As for how does a CCW help you, it’s not gonna help you there but it’ll help you when you’re out on the street away from the school. California is a dangerous place and I don’t think people realize that. I think every single person that can obtain a CCW should because the criminals are gonna come get you at some point. Every single crime victim that I talk to in California when I was a cop there all said they didn’t think it would happen to them
Question: I have my CA Armed Guard Card , can I perform Armed Security at my church or do I have to be associated with a PPO first?
the licensing agency that covers that in CA is very strict. I'm not exactly sure about the exact rules if you were to work for your church, but I do believe you have to be there as part of an agency. It is best to get your CCW and then volunteer.
If we were to find the law supports a person must be there as apart of an agency; Doesn’t that sound “wrong”?
Meaning, I can be licensed to be an armed guard but I can’t provide volunteer services within the laws I’m licensed for unless I’m attached to a for-profit PPO. This would make more since if the PPO offered the training and licensing…but that’s not true either. I’m going to do some more research on this. I’ll try and keep you updated and thank you for your response! God bless
I’m from California and currently serve as an un-armed security volunteer at my Church. We do have some armed, off-duty LEO and retired LEO volunteers but not nearly enough of them. Some of us un-armed volunteers would like to be able to CC while volunteering,. The trouble is our Church operates an accredited K-12 Christian school as a ministry on site during the week. My question is this: can the Church (as owner of the entire property) limit, in writing, the hours and days the school is allowed to use the Church’s property for school purposes? Under such a lease or other written agreement, (I would think) the school would not exist on the hours and days not included in their agreement. So, during a typical school day, the entire church property could be viewed as “school property”. On the other hand, restricted days (per the lease or agreement with the school) the Church would have sole use of the entire campus as the school has no right to operate as a school on those days and hours per the written agreement. Thus on those other days and hours the Church’s property would simply be a Church, and not a school for the purposes of private concealed carrying of a handgun.
This seems very cut-and-dry to me, what am I missing.
Also, as being from San Jose, California, I have not even tried to apply for a California CCL. I know two individuals who have completed and now have their Cal CCLs. One took 18 months, the other took 2 years to get. Currently, each license is good for 2 years and costs in the neighborhood of $1,750. Crazy. I’ve carried CCLs from Utah, Oregon, and Nevada for over 13 years and carry whenever and wherever I travel out of this State. So, my second question is this: I’m not familiar with Federal or California laws requiring a local CCL to carry in a Church. Could you elaborate for me where in the law that requirement can be found? I just assumed a private “Church” was private property like a residence or business. Thanks for your feedback.
Unfortunately that won't work. I'm sorry. AS for a CCW, if you are in a red county you can get one no problem. I worked in the Bay Area. The sheriff's there will delay you as much as possible to deter you. PLease, just start the process. You'll need that CCW.
I’m glad I asked the question. I was under a mistaken understanding of what the word “public” meant as it relates to “private property”. Thank you for clarifying that and giving me the basis under the law.
Good morning Keith,
Can I add one additional question beings you’re a former law enforcement officer from California: if a person without a Cal CCL properly transports a firearm and then wares it CC in a Church “without” a school present, is there a penal code preventing him from doing so? If so, could you point me to that penal code. I know this isn’t my situation at the moment, but it helps me understand all the different limitations on this subject.
Thanks for your help
In California, carrying a concealed firearm without a CCW is illegal under Penal Code § 25400, regardless of location, including a church without a school present. Properly transporting a firearm (unloaded, in a locked container) is allowed under Penal Code § 25610, but concealed carry on your person without a permit violates the law. Let me know if you need further clarification!
Hi Keith, I know you’re a busy guy and I feel bad asking you again but, please, can you point me to the section of the California penal code you were referring to when you described how a Church cannot separate itself from a school that contracts to use part of its property during specific school days and hours. There is a lot riding on me being able to definitely describe to our Church what legal dangers there might be… or not.
Thank you sir,
Gary
As for a California CCL… with an 18 to 24 months wait, I think I would be better off waiting for a good reciprocity bill from Congress or a corrective decision from the Supreme Court.
Anything you can add to this would be much appreciated. Thank you Keith.
My son-in-law is an attorney but he does not specialize in criminal law. I was hoping to get to the bottom of this with specific penal codes and/or case law that I could use to discuss this with him. I appreciate your “no” recommendation but I’m the kind of person that also needs to know “why”.
Keith, I am curious about your answers to my two questions, and I was wondering about what laws (other than the Federal and California Gun-Free Zone Act and the Safe Schools Act which I have read and studied) and what case law examples brought you to your conclusions. Have there been similar examples of innocent citizens charged and convicted of carrying after their Churches had separated themselves from their schools in a manner similar to what I suggested?
Also, I’m still at a loss to understand how having a California CCL adds anything other than some convenience when it comes to carrying at a Church (assuming the Church doesn’t have an attached school). Sure, a non CCL holder security volunteer in California would have to bring his handgun to Church in a locked container, and holster it only once he arrives on Church property. Then he would have to reverse this process before he leaves. Why would it not be legal for a private citizen to conceal carry on private Church property? Is there some other law I’m not familiar with? Please help me to understand this.
Thank you for helping me to understand these issues.
It all comes from the California penal code. As for how does a CCW help you, it’s not gonna help you there but it’ll help you when you’re out on the street away from the school. California is a dangerous place and I don’t think people realize that. I think every single person that can obtain a CCW should because the criminals are gonna come get you at some point. Every single crime victim that I talk to in California when I was a cop there all said they didn’t think it would happen to them
Thank you for your prompt reply. If there is no work-around for the school operating on Church property, then the whole CCW topic for me is mute.